Episode 114: Better Sex, Better Relationship In 2021 with Shana James

Dr. John Schinnerer: Hey everybody. This is Dr. John back with another episode in 2021 of the Evolved Caveman podcast, and I am thrilled to have with me today. Today Shayna James. And for 15 years, Shayna has coached more than a thousand leaders, CEOs, authors, speakers, and people with big visions. Who step into more powerful leadership, start and grow businesses, increase their impact, find love, create a legacy, and become more personally inspired and fulfilled, although not all at the same time, referred to as a secret weapon.

She cuts through distraction. Provides direct access to your confidence, power, and clarity. She's also a translator between women and men, which we'll talk about today. She provides effective tools to transform conversations and dynamics that have gone awry into connection and collaboration. She holds a master's in psychology and she has more than a decade facilitating groups and workshops.

She started multiple businesses and has helped hundreds of entrepreneurs start their own. Her range of skills is quite vast, and I'm really excited to have her with me here today. Shayna, how the heck are you?

Shana James: I'm doing all right in the midst of insanity in our world and our politics and our families.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And well, yeah, just to provide context for everyone. The day that we're recording, this is the day after, uh, an angry mob stormed the capitol, what? January 6th? Um, yes. So that was a little bit, uh, unnerving. I think I was left with a pit in my stomach.

Shana James: Yes. Agreed. All day pretty much. Agreed. Yep.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Uh, I, I think it's the closest.

Uh, we've ever come to failing as a democracy.

Shana James: Yeah. I, it's alm i, I, it's almost like I can't totally process it. Right. It's so big. The implications of it and how it ha why it happened. It's, it's deep. It, I feel like it's gonna take a while to understand.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And it's, it's, it really drove home the point for me of the fragility of democracy and how it has to be handled with respect and yes, ideally kindness and care.

Shana James: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And it, it can't withstand years and years of lies and mistruths. And I think one of the things that bums me out the most about the last few years is the realization that we're living in a post-truth society.

Shana James: God. Right. And I often think about it, it seems like our country is. I used to think of it like a teenager, right?

Like if we had to age our country Now, it's an old

Dr. John Schinnerer: man

Shana James: now. Well now it's actually, when I was watching Joe Biden yesterday, I was like, oh, it's kind of like Grandpa Biden coming and being like, come on, people, let's, you know, let's get it together. But now it feels a little more like we've, you know, we've been in the toddler phase for the last bunch of years of just like throwing shit at the wall and not really understanding the impact.

And so, I don't know, I don't know how far you wanna go down that road.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, I, yeah, I don't either. But I, I read an article recently. Um.

That this presidential election was a referendum on two types of masculinity, traditional versus progressive.

Shana James: Ah, interesting. And, and I think there's

Dr. John Schinnerer: a lot of legs to that argument.

Um,

Shana James: yeah. Right. And traditional masculinity and just, you know, in some ways I think there were some healthy pieces of traditional masculinity and there were some toxic pieces Yeah, definitely. Of traditional masculinity. Right. And so I think the toxic pieces really were highlighted in the past bunch of years.

Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Alright, well let's, let's focus, and I just wanna give that perspective to listeners. So.

Shayna, tell me about you at your very best. What was your story of hassle to happiness and, and how did you get into working with men and why the hell are you still doing it?

Shana James: Okay, those are a lot of questions. Um, well let, let's start with how I got into working with men.

So I was doing my master's in psychology thinking I was gonna work with women, and I became part of an intentional community where we were really focused on authenticity and. You know, kind of going to the mat with each other, being really honest about our attractions and our frustrations and our jealousies and all of those things.

And two of the men who were part of that, were experiencing so much more freedom and um. Confidence and you know, just more of what they wanted in their lives. And so they decided they were gonna create a course for men where women would give honest and loving feedback. And so I was invited to be part of that team, and that was almost 20 years ago.

And it radically changed my life. I mean, I had all kinds of personal struggles with men, you know, not like I still don't, right? We're all human. But, um, you know, at that point it was, I was young, I was in my early twenties, and it was like, you know, men are this way, or men only objectify me, or whatever those things were, I had a chance to actually see behind.

The veil or behind the curtain, and men started showing up with vulnerability and, you know, with their longings and their needs that hadn't been accepted or welcomed. And it just kind of slayed me in a way, you know, it, it like cut my heart open and I started to really understand the struggles of men in a way that I never had.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And, and so where do you stand now? I mean, so are, do you see men as a coach then? Currently?

Shana James: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Okay. And you have a TEDx talk as well, and and the title kind of interested me and it's what a thousand Men's Tears reveal about the crisis between men and women. Correct?

Shana James: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So what did you talk about in that talk?

Shana James: I talked a lot about vulnerability and how unwelcome it has often been. Uh, for men, you know? And one of the stories I told was walking down the hall of my son's priest, my son's kindergarten, and he was crying because he was scared about something. And this woman walked by us not knowing anything that was happening.

And she said, no tears. And I almost punched her in the face. Mm-hmm. You know, I like, thankfully held back. I was like, okay, I can't, I can't do violence here. But you know, as she walked by, I just looked at my kid and I was like, it is okay to cry. It is okay to feel everything you're feeling. And a couple days later, randomly synchronistically, whatever, her son came up to me and said, I got in trouble today for being mean to three kids.

And I was like, well, no wonder. Right? You know, I mean, when your parent tells you, you cannot feel your emotions, you start to take it out on other people. And so. Part of the talk was about all the things that I've seen, you know, over the past couple decades where men come to me and don't feel okay about their needs or their desires or, you know, asking for them and where they feel like they've gotta be the rock and hold it together and not show any of that vulnerability and how we as a society can actually start to come together too.

Welcome men's vulnerability as a strength rather than some kind of weakness.

Dr. John Schinnerer: It's interesting to me, one of the things I've thought about in this man box culture, which is, you know, how we are socialized typically as boys and teenagers Yeah. Um, is where those messages come from. And I, I think at times they can come from your parents as stereotypically it's the father, but not always.

It could be friends, it can be peers, and it can be other adults, maybe sports coaches. Yeah. But one of the questions which I have for you is. Do you have any idea or any feeling of how many times it takes for it to leave a mark? In other words, you know, uh, stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about.

You know, how many times do we need to hear that? Because I've kicked this around just in my own head. And I, I guess I've kind of come up with an answer, so I was just curious if you have any, yeah, I'm curious

Shana James: what your answer is. I mean, I don't know. I think when we're young, we're so impressionable that it really starts to become the fabric or the structure of our identity.

So I don't think we have to hear it very much, but I also think that we tend to hear those messages a lot. Like we tend to be, um. You know, kind of underwater in them when it's in our family dynamic, it happens all the time. Mm-hmm. So, I don't know what, what's your sense of the number of, well, I think

Dr. John Schinnerer: if, you know, if you're dealing with a young boy who's relatively smart and sensitive, which I really think most of us are born in that vein, um, it doesn't take many times at all, I would say 2, 3, 4, 5 times.

And you've internalized that message. One of the things I've thought about in the past was, um, when I would misbehave as a small, stupid boy, um, my mom would get mad and she would say, you know, you're a selfish, spoiled little brat.

Shana James: Aw, wow.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Now I don't know how many times that was actually said.

Shana James: Yeah,

Dr. John Schinnerer: I know that.

But you

Shana James: remember it, you know, 40 something years later. That

Dr. John Schinnerer: grade rattled around in my skull for many, many years, and I had to challenge it, catch it, you know, kind of. Deconstruct it. Yeah. And it, it's interesting 'cause I had a conversation with my mom recently as adults about this, and she said, oh, you know, I only said that once or twice.

I said it once or, yeah. And, and I'm like, my memory is, I heard that dozens of times now. I don't know what the actual truth is. We don't know

Shana James: what the truth is.

Dr. John Schinnerer: But I, I don't, it's just an interesting question to me because I think it, it brings up that idea of trauma in men. Yes. And, and think of little T for trauma, not big T.

Shana James: Yep.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Um, but. How much is enough for this man box culture to take hold and shape our behavior and our thoughts, right? And then think

Shana James: about, you know, for men who are heterosexual and in relationships with women. If there are a couple times where a woman says to you like, oh, you're selfish for wanting that, or, I don't wanna hear it, or, you know, why are you being a baby?

Or Your tears are uncomfortable for some way. Right? Yeah. I would imagine it only takes a couple times with that person for you to be like, whoa, this person is not a safe place for me to now share my truth and what's real for me.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Well, especially if you've been. In relationships in the past, your whole life, where you've gotten those similar messages Exactly.

And then you get one message and you're like, oh, shit shouldn't show that anymore.

Shana James: Yes, exactly right. They all build and it probably happens

Dr. John Schinnerer: faster than conscious thought.

Shana James: Yes.

Dr. John Schinnerer: You know, or it's the, the thought is so quick that we don't even catch it.

Shana James: Yep. Agreed.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Um, and yeah. So have you had that experience of being in a relationship where someone tells you that whatever you're feeling is okay?

Shana James: Yes, I have. It's really amazing. And

Dr. John Schinnerer: what's that like?

Shana James: Um, what is it like? I mean, it's like so many things. It's like a breath of fresh air, you know, mind. It's like my heart gets to actually. Uh, feel whole. I get to feel welcomed. You know, all of those voices in my head about what's wrong with me, get challenged.

It's really beautiful. I, I don't imagine that many people get to have that experience. I imagine you might have that with your wife 'cause you're both doing this work. Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. My fiance, but yes,

Shana James: fiance. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's incredible.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. It, it feels, and I remember the, the day it happened, it was, you know, I had come over to her house after work and I was tired and stressed and she, um, uh, she knows, which is great and frustrating at the same time sometimes.

But, uh, you know, she told me, look, you're allowed to feel whatever it is you're feeling because I think I apologize for being irritable.

Shana James: Yeah. And

Dr. John Schinnerer: it was like the emotional shackles kind of came off.

Shana James: Yes,

Dr. John Schinnerer: yes. And I was like, oh, you mean it's okay. Yeah.

Shana James: Right now there's a, a choice, uh, between right, we're allowed to feel whatever we feel, and then we have a choice about how we act that out or how much consciousness we bring to a situation or, you know, what, what we want to create with our partners.

But I think most people don't get to that point that you just spoke about, and so you can't get to that conscious. Navigation or collaboration with a partner.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Right. Well, and so let's shift gears a little bit. Yeah.

I guess it's in the same vein, but I wanted to talk a little bit more about how to create more of that connection and passion in relationships.

I guess this is one of the ways Yeah. IE vulnerability. Yeah. Um, so how, what are some of your tips or how do you teach people to create more spark or desire in a relationship?

Shana James: Yeah. Well, I think what you just said is really. Part of it, it's, it's a perfect segue because I think the more we are willing to reveal and be honest about what's going on, whether it's I just got my feelings hurt or I feel, you know, unseen, or I feel actually kind of upset about that thing you said yesterday and I'm still stewing over it, right?

That really keeps the spark alive. If we just keep shoving those things under the rug. Are, we have to numb out in a way because we feel that internal tension and resentment and frustration. And so as we turn down the dial so that we don't have to feel all of that, we also lose the passion and the spark.

So oftentimes when I'm working with men on having a better sex life or having more passion, where we really start with is, you know, what are the truths that you have not been saying? What are the feelings that you haven't been expressing? Because we've gotta help you come back alive in a way so that you can then embody this aliveness, which actually subconsciously has an impact on your wife, on your partner, again, if you're in a heterosexual relationship.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Right. So backing that up a second. Yeah. So when you ask men what they've been hiding or what they haven't been stating Yeah. Or what they're feeling are, do you feel like most men. Uh, are aware of what they're feeling or to what extent are they aware?

Shana James: Yeah, it, it depends. I would say I've experienced a whole range, but often men come to me and they have thoughts.

And then I say, great, okay, that's the first layer. Now let's check in with your body and let's check in with your emotions. And oftentimes it takes a little while or like, well, yeah. And then I think about this and I'm like, okay, great. You know, now we're back in the thoughts. And so it does take some walking, you know, through or helping men, I think slow down in my experience to get in touch with those pieces.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. I, to me it takes a little bit of education. 'cause I, you'll get a lot of, well, Shayna, I think I'm feeling hurt.

Shana James: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Is that a feeling? You know,

Shana James: right. Like, what does it actually feel like? Right. What's the sensation happening in your body? And I, you know, I had a client yesterday who I was tying it in.

He was like, I'm doing all the right thing. You know, I'm, I'm bringing my wife coffee, I'm doing nice things for her. I'm feeding our animals. 'cause I know she likes all those things, but our sex life isn't as passionate or it doesn't feel as alive. And so we, we point, you know, I got to this point with him where I was like, okay, you're doing the things in your head.

That you think she wants, but your way of relating to her from what we had talked about was very intellectual. It wasn't that, you know, integrating, I often talk about head, heart, and balls, right? Like, you know that integrating that primal part of you versus the one who's here to just care, take or, you know, be the the good guy.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So how do we, I mean, 'cause it makes me think of like. A husband and wife, or, I mean, we're assuming heterosexual couples, but it, it may not be. Yeah. Um, so forgive the languaging if you're not heterosexual. Yes. But, um, I'm thinking of two different couples. One who's kind of living parallel lives who don't have that emotional connection.

Mm-hmm. And then another couple that is emotionally connected, vulnerable, sharing what they feel and highly. Sexually connected as a result. Yeah. How do you get from step A to step B?

Shana James: Right. So one of the things I was thinking, I, I was working with a woman this morning and she said to me, you know what? I just had this revelation that I thought my lack of desire for my husband was about the position or how he was touching me.

And I just realized that it's about whether we're connected or not. Yep. And it takes a little while to understand, well, what do you mean by connected? And, you know, how would I know if we were actually connected? But I think to, to get from the place of distant or, you know, kind of numb or intellectual.

Part of it takes that embodiment, right? Like actually, like you said, educating and learning. Oh, can explain embodiment though, for someone that doesn't know that word. Right. So when I think about embodiment, it's like you can experience the world. If you walk into a room, you could look around and you could label everything.

You know, oh, that's a cabinet, that's a, I'm thinking about a kitchen. Right? That's a cabinet, that's a stove. That's whatever. You can also, so

Dr. John Schinnerer: stereotypical,

Shana James: yes, stereotypical woman. I think about my kitchen and you know, you could also walk into the room and actually f. Feel the mood of the room. Right. If there are people in the room, you can have that sense of, and it impacts, you can feel it in your stomach, you can feel it in your chest.

Sometimes you could feel it in your, you get tingles or, right. So embodiment to me is starting to wake up the fact that. We actually can take in the world in different ways. We have an emotional response to the world. We have an embodied a, a physical sensation response to the world, and then we have the intellectual response to the world.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And, and I, I always have this association. I, one of the things I do is teach men to take their attention out of their head and into their body. Yes. To figure out what it is they're actually feeling. Yes. And I, I really think, um, you know, Descartes, Renee Descartes, the philosopher, fucked us. For a hundred, several hundred years by saying, I think therefore I am.

Yeah. Or maybe it's just me. I don't know. Because I was like, yes, I think therefore I am. That's me. I'm a thinker. Right. And it totally disconnected me from my body for years. Yeah. And I, I think, you know, that's part of that man box culture and how we're socialized that we're taught to be or re rewarded for being intellectual problem solving.

But it screws us up in relationship because Totally. We can't shift gears into our body.

Shana James: Right. And I think about men who tend to be really successful in their work and their businesses and they go to work and they're listened to and respected and you know, there's excitement 'cause there's collaboration and they're admired and then they come home and it doesn't go well.

I think that's the main thing that happens is that there isn't a shift from. Alright. My thoughts are what, you know, are creating this power here in the office. Often, I mean, you know, there's, there's emotion and embodiment as well with that. But more they can, they can rest more. And the intellect. And then when you come home, especially if you're in a heterosexual relationship with a woman, you know, intellect is lovely.

There's nothing wrong with it. You can have a really great time. You can make jokes, you can have deep intellectual, you know. There are, what's the, um, sapiosexual like? I've often identified myself as a sapiosexual, like ideas turn me on, you know? Oh, okay. So it's not like there's anything wrong with that, but especially in a long-term relationship, it will, that will fade or that won't really create the turn on that the body and the emotional experience will create.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So are there, I mean, I, because you know, I talk about, or the question was how do you help men create more of a spark? Yeah. And because I guess I'm a man, my mind goes to sex. Yeah. Um, so what else can we do to create more spark, to create the spark, to create more, um, in, in the bedroom. And I, it makes me think of.

Well, let me just ask you and then and see what,

Shana James: yeah, I mean the, one of the things that just came up for me was listening and listening can happen out of the bedroom and in the bedroom. But if we're going into the bedroom, right when you're listening, and again, you can listen with your ears. To what sounds is she making or what, you know, verbal expressions are happening, but you can also listen with your body and you can feel, when you start to actually tune in, you can start to feel, is there tension in this woman's body?

Is there a resistance? Is there a kind of like gritting her teeth or is she really relaxing and enjoying this and am I willing to. Uh, to engage with that, right? Instead of like, all right, well if I wanna have sex and I wanna have an amazing orgasm, then we've just gotta keep barreling forward no matter what's happening, and I'm just gonna make this happen.

I find that most women, after a short amount of time are pretty over that and their, their turn on fades, but when, yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Uh, I was gonna say, why, why is relaxation so important for women, uh, around the issue of sex?

Shana James: Yeah. As a woman myself and having worked with many women, I will say that when our bodies are not relaxed, um, it's really hard to feel pleasure

Dr. John Schinnerer: and so, or orgasm either.

I mean, both. Right, right.

Shana James: Especially orgasm is like, you know, ultimate expansive, pleasure. And so, uh, the more you're helping a woman relax and, and when a woman feels seen and understood, right? Or if she, if you notice something, like, I talk about this sometimes where I had a partner who we were in the middle of having sex or making out or something, and he was.

Yeah, you are not really that into this right now, are you?

Dr. John Schinnerer: It's the setup for the setup. Gave it away. We're having sex or making out or something.

Shana James: Something or something. Right. But you know, it was so beautiful because, uh, normally, you know, we had incredible chemistry and he was willing to say, Hey, something different is happening here in this moment and let's.

Let's look at it. Let's not be attached. So that's another piece is not being attached to some kind of outcome. And so, you know, it turned out I had been to a funeral that day and I was still really, I was sad. I was grieving and I was trying to be in it, but I wasn't really, and he just held space for me, like you said, you know, he accepted where I was and I just cried.

And then we ended up having incredibly passionate sex because. That part of me was allowed. So another thing that creates more spark in the bedroom is not trying to get back to happy. Right? Or we could talk about definitions of happiness, but not trying to get back to everything's okay, but actually welcoming more of these, this range of emotional responses into the bedroom.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, and I, I think it's a great example because I think when you do make allowance or make space for the other person's, your partner's emotions. That in and of itself leads to greater emotional depth connection and ultimately sex.

Shana James: Totally. Right. It's like then you've got more, um, more colors on the canvas, more there's more pleasure available.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And, and I think the other thing that enters into creating Spark, and I think you alluded to this, is communication. I, I mean, of course I'm thinking of Melanie Curtin, who's a sex researcher, and she found, oh, you know, okay, so she found that 90% of men. Or 90% of women, women say 90% of men are not good in bed.

So yeah. Women say 90% of women

Shana James: Wow.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Women who are sexually experienced, say 90%, say 90% of men not good in bed are just not good in bed. Interesting. 'cause I, I think they are just pile driving. You know, it's kind of like, this is what I saw on, on U porn. Like what? Yeah, exactly. Porn hub. Like, what are you talking about?

This is the girl in the video was excited. Yeah. Um, and, and I think that's typically our education. Um, and she found that. Communication is a big deal. So huge. Let's talk a little bit about communication around sex and, and also kind of um, I think foreplay in and out of the bedroom.

Shana James: Yes. Okay. So one of the things I think about for communication is I love conversations and I think they go, I think it's really helpful for couples when you have conversations.

Outta the bedroom, right? So before sex conversations about desire and what you really like and your fantasies and what feels good to you, and why going to that deeper place, not just if I have this fantasy, but well, why do I have this fantasy? What am I actually wanting to experience? And then the debrief conversation about.

The sex we just had, or the sex we had yesterday. You know, what did you really love about it or what was exciting for you and what do you wanna experience more of? You can kind of get around the complaints and the frustrations by saying, what did you want more of? Right? So it's a more positive conversation.

Mm-hmm. Um, and for couples in the bedroom to be willing to actually say, and no, this has been hard for me as a woman to actually say. Will you do that lighter or will you, you know, touch me over here? Mm-hmm. And if I say it once, it's hard for me to say it again if it isn't quite the way I want it to. And then even a third time it's like, oh God, I'm not supposed to do this.

You know, I'm supposed to just be. Okay.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So could I interrupt you there? 'cause what's the worst thing that we men can do when you say something like that? In the moment. What's

Shana James: the worst thing? Worst thing is like, ugh or worst couple

Dr. John Schinnerer: of things.

Shana James: The worst couple of things are to get frustrated or irritated or act like it's a problem.

You know? Take it

Dr. John Schinnerer: personal. Yeah.

Shana James: Yes. To take it personally. And you know, I have tons of compassion for that, having worked with so many men over the years and so I'm not, uh, you know, you're not bad or wrong if you take something personally. But just know that it's not going to create more connection or spark.

And so it could, well, it could create more connection or spark if you're willing to be vulnerable with your partner about it and be like, okay, hold on. I just, you know, I just, that just hit me hard and I just took it personally and so I just, I need a moment to recover. Right. And to, to be able to work it out together.

That to me is, is ultimately the, the, the point of, okay, we're in these relationships together. We're growing together, we're healing together. We're having more and more pleasure and learning to love better. So if you, if you take something personally and you get stuck in the shame spiral and you just deal with it on your own, and then you try to keep having sex, right?

That's where things start to get farther and farther apart.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So what would you say if I'm a man who was raised, um, in, I don't know, a very restrictive, um, sexual household? Like very Yeah. Prudish household. Yeah. Um, I think Catholic. I don't know. We'll just insult the Catholics while we're doing this, or I will, I'll take responsibility.

Okay. You do, you take responsibility for that one? Um, but like, and, and I have no experience with this personally, but let's say, I can't even say the names of the body parts.

Shana James: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: How am I, how can I talk about it then?

Shana James: Right. Well, I feel like that's where I come in. So oftentimes I get to work with men who haven't been able to say what they want or, you know, I remember one time when I first started working with men, I did a session where a man, I noticed he was really nervous and, you know, really acting awkward.

And I said, what? What's going on? And he said, I, I can't. I'm just having a hard time. You know, you, you, you have a body, you have a, you have a woman's body and you have breasts and I can't really look at them and, but they're right there and, you know, and so we slowed it down and I was like, okay, let's try you looking at my body.

Just know that I am an invitation, you know, it's welcome. So it's kind of like re-patterning. You know, I get to practice a lot with men. You know, let's have you say the thing that you feel terrified to say, or the thing you think makes you dirty or gross, or the thing you think makes you weak and be in the face of a loving woman to heal that so that when you go back into your relationship or relationships, you're not starting from square one and you're not, you know, it's okay if you're gonna have feelings or get triggered.

Again, it goes better, you know, things go easier, the fewer triggers we have. And so I love getting to practice those things and heal those things with men.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, and I think, you know, I was kind of joking about it earlier, but I think that was me earlier in, in my life where I just, I was uncomfortable saying and talking about these things in the bedroom.

Yeah. And if you can't say the. The names, if you can't say cock and pussy and Yeah. Different name, whatever you wanna call them.

Shana James: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: But if you can't say 'em, you can't have these conversations. You can't get better.

Shana James: Yes. Agreed. And

Dr. John Schinnerer: you can't get more connected. Um, and so I, I think that's a really big deal as well.

Shana James: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Huh. Um, so, okay. I wanted to go touch on foreplay because I think for a lot of men, we think that foreplay begins in the bedroom.

Shana James: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Schinnerer: What are your thoughts about that?

Shana James: Well, I expand the definition of sex to be not just what's happening in the bedroom to, but to be what's happening everywhere.

And so, and, and not just genitals, but like you could be touching my fingers, right? We could have like finger to finger. And it could feel orgasmic. So I also expand the definition of orgasm. Mm-hmm. Right? There's this sense of energy and pleasure moving through your body, and maybe a sexual orgasm or one that happens in the bedroom with genital penetration or stimulation might be higher frequency or more intense.

Mm-hmm. But you know, you can start to feel orgasmic anywhere. And there are a lot of people who feel energetic orgasms. All different kinds of orgasms. I did a podcast with a woman who talked about the 14 different types of orgasms for men. Susan Bratton, I don't know if you know her. She's awesome.

Dr. John Schinnerer: No. Wow.

That's a lot.

Shana James: Yeah.

So, uh, first of all right, I like to expand men's definition and yeah, for, if we think about it that way, you know, four plague happens. In the morning when you wake up, if you wake up with a woman, and if you're with her, you text if you're with her, you know, maybe there's a little bit of touching or even just looking into each other's eyes or wishing her a good day.

Or if you're living apart, it might be a text or a, a flirting, you know, something like that. So, yeah, I think it, it, it goes better. I don't know, I don't always like to genderize it, but I think there is a way that women's bodies can tend to open more slowly. So if there's more connection and more pings throughout a day, she's gonna be more likely to be able to open later in the day.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, I think you're exactly on point. I mean, I like the idea that the brain is the biggest sex organ in female body. Yes. And so you're trying to stimulate that all day long, whether it's by sending, you know, a loving text or I'm thinking about you, or you look hot in those jeans, or you know, I like to get little.

Love quotes, I guess. Like you can get little, they're not really memes, but you know, they're just love quotes with a little graphic behind them. Yeah. And text those to my fiance.

Shana James: I love that. And then also sharing what impacts you or, you know, it could be around, oh, your, your ass looks great in those jeans.

Or it could be like, you know, when you, um. When you washed our kids' hair last night and I looked at you, you know, with all the suds on your hands, and I just saw the love that you were bringing for our child, like, you know, it really touched me deeply. Yeah. I dunno, I just made that one out of the Blu-ray.

It could be about anything. It could be about any way that she either took care of you or that she took care of herself, you know, anyway, that she. Spoke a truth or took a risk or something like that. So I think, you know, as you continue to get more and more personal with the things, they go deeper as well.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So I, let me ask you this.

I, you know, my fiance gets turned on by emotions, like when I share how I'm feeling with her. Yes. Which then became a joke because most things become a joke with me. But I then I would be like, Hey honey. I'm sad right now. Saturday, do you wanna, um, and she would kind of laugh and slap me, but, um, do, uh, you said you were a sapiosexual, so ideas turn you on.

What about emotions? Oh, yeah. If your partner sharing how they feel?

Shana James: Yeah. Why? And you, do you have any idea

Dr. John Schinnerer: why?

Shana James: Well, I think it's, you know, uh, I think it's a, a person's heart is opening and a person's making themselves available to be connected with now. In my Ted talk, I, I distinguish between dumping emotions and sharing emotions.

And so if somebody comes to me and just starts, you know, if a man comes to me and is kind of sobbing and falling apart and asking me to fix him, I may not necessarily feel as turned on. I may feel compassion and love and all kinds of things. Mm-hmm. But when I, when I see a man feel sadness. Without going into shame about it, you know, when he's actually deeply in his own truth, while loving himself and feeling the vulnerability.

That to me tends to be a really big turn on that. There's, there's a strength and there's a vulnerability present at the same time.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Uh, is do you think self, I'm just kind of brainstorming here. Yeah. Do you think self-awareness is part of that?

Shana James: I do. I do. And, and as you said that, I thought, oh. I feel safer when there's self-awareness and women are often tracking for safety.

And so if you're aware, well, safety and security

Dr. John Schinnerer: are big, huge across the board, in my opinion. And it doesn't matter if it's parenting, if it's in your primary relationship, if you're managing a team at work. Yeah. I mean there's research and not gender back all this either, right? Yeah.

And yeah, I get your point of gender earlier and I think.

In that example we were talking about, it was female, male, but I, I like the distinction between sex and gender.

Shana James: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: So sex is male, female, gender is masculine, feminine, and you can have a very masculine woman. You can have a very feminine man or, or anywhere in between.

Shana James: Yes. The, the whole range of it. Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Um, okay. So let's shift gears a little bit and thank you for going there with me. I, I appreciate that. Sure. I think it's really, really helpful for men, um, because I think we need to learn to, to cross that divide a little bit more, a little bit better with our words. I mean, in terms of speaking about what's going on in the bedroom.

Yeah. Asking questions, being curious, uh, not taking things personally, but how does, how does passion enter into men's.

Careers, their dreams and ultimately how satisfied they are with life.

Shana James: Yeah, well the first thought I had, I'm not sure, I think this corrects, connects, but you can, you can tell me if I'm going off track, but when I think about a man who learns to be more connected, to listen more fully, to actually experience life through his body.

I mean, you know, some of these things start to happen when you're working on your own relation, your romantic relationship, right? Some of these things start to become clearer when those men who I've worked with go back into their careers. People trust them more. People respect them more. They actually have more job satisfaction, you know, or they shift and they choose another job.

So it's not just like, Ugh, I have to slug through this no matter what. So I find that then those men step into more inspiring positions or careers. I've had men come back to me and say. Uh, my boss has no idea what's been going on with me, but you know, is getting all these requests for me to lead meetings, or I've had other men who are like, you know, my boss suddenly wanted to offer me a promotion and I didn't even ask for it.

It's like when that aliveness. It translates back into work and into the personal connections. 'cause you and I both know, right. There's so much of work that is actually about the, the relationships and the personal connections. You know, that's, that's how I see the passion translate.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Okay. Let me, so I remember I was having a conversation about this, this man, um, and he was terrified that if he began to tap into his emotions at home Yeah.

Holy shit, then what happens when I go to work? Yeah. And like he was afraid that he would like start sobbing at work and wouldn't be able to turn it off kind of a thing. Yeah. It's that idea of, you know, scratching the scab and the scab starts bleeding, the wound starts bleeding. I'm never gonna be able to sob it, never

Shana James: gonna be right.

And that to me is a fear. I imagine you've seen that a lot, that many people have. Like once I start crying, I'm never gonna be able to stop. And in my experience. It's usually not that way. Right? I mean, sometimes I know I've, when I got divorced, I cried every day for mm-hmm. Six months or a year. But it wasn't continuous, you know, it was like, oh, things would make me cry or tear up, and then I would move on.

And so with men, sometimes I work with, with them and like, okay, so what's, you know, what's the worst thing that could happen? If you did start to cry in a meeting, you know, what's your fear? And often it's the fear that they would be rejected. But I love Mike Robbin's work where he talks about bringing your whole self to work and the authenticity.

And he's vulnerability. Yeah, he's right. And he's, he's talked about going into meetings. Where CEOs have cried and finally the team has come up to him and said, geez, we've been waiting for that for like five years or 10 years. We've been working for this guy and we've never seen a vulnerable bone in his body, and we've all been frustrated, and thank you for allowing that.

Right? So I think these days people are getting more and more human at work, and you could always excuse yourself, right? If you're feeling emotional, you could always say, wow. Okay, something's coming up for me and you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go take a walk for a couple minutes and then I'm gonna come back.

I think people respect it more and more these days, and I, and I see that when emotion is present, people get more inspired, right? Like, if you have a vision and you have a, a mission that you wanna accomplish, and it's all heady, theoretical. Okay, that's one level. People could get inspired, but if you start feeling the emotions of the impact that your vision or your mission could have on people, people feel that and they become much more likely to support you and to get behind you.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, I would say I, I remember when I was doing the radio show back about, I don't know, 15 years ago, and I was pretty fresh outta Cal and very in my head and was just kind of sharing research studies and findings and I, I had this realization, this epiphany that holy shit, like this is good information, but it's not gonna motivate anyone uhhuh to do any real lasting change.

Exactly. And what I need to motivate change are. I need to be able to emote, I need to be able to tell a story that has emotion within it. Exactly. And it makes me think of, uh, there was research that came out recently where they had people get up in front of a, a group and share something that was vulnerable.

Hmm. And then they judged. So they had them report on. What was your experience after presenting?

Shana James: Yep.

Dr. John Schinnerer: What was your experience after watching other people present something vulnerable? And after the individual spoke themselves, they felt doubt and a little bit of self-loathing perhaps, and maybe some hangover, like, oh my God, why did I do that?

That was so stupid. I told too much. And at the same time, when they watched other people be vulnerable. They thought, wow, that's so courageous. I love to hear that. I feel closer to this person. So I, I feel it's important to share that study just to love that, get the idea, love out. That, that, that's a huge gap between self and other perception.

Yes. In this area in particular.

Shana James: Yeah. In this area in particular. We often have a sense, and I think for men especially because most men have been raised not to do that. Right. I think that there is that gap. That we can view ourselves more negatively, and yet people feel closer to us and people trust us more.

Right. If, if my experience, especially as a woman with men, is if I experience something deep within, right. I can, you know, I have that spidey sense that I've developed a lot over many years, but I think a lot of women have it, even if they can't put words to it. Mm-hmm. There's something going on and you're angry or you're upset, but on the surface you're showing that you're fine.

I have less trust for you and doesn't, again, doesn't make you a bad person. Why? It's just why, um, because I, you're, there's an incongruence, there's a sense of like, I don't know, is how is that gonna come out at some point, it's probably gonna come out in some way, shape, or form. Whatever's in there. If you're not showing it now, is it going to come out in an attack?

Is it going to, you know, or is it never gonna come out? And then you're gonna become a ghost of yourself, and then you're gonna, you know, really not show up anymore. So it, it, I think it can come out in either or it can happen in either of those ways. It becomes something that becomes either resentment or anger, or it's something that just has a man or person just become more and more dead end.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Yeah. And I, my mind goes all over the place when you're talking. I think you're absolutely right and I think that, you know, it, it's interesting. I, the other part of this is, um, like when you're, we're talking about sharing emotion at work and being vulnerable, I think that part of this is. That we're shooting for the ideal, kind of what you referred to earlier about, you know, share.

It's, it's a balance between intellect and emotion where you can share like, gee, Shayna, you know, it, it really upset me when you, um, shut me down in the meeting. Mm-hmm. But I can say that calmly and I'm sharing Yes. How it made me feel versus raging about Exactly. You shutting me down in the meeting or sobbing uncontrollably over the fact that.

I dunno, I didn't get my bonus versus saying to my boss, Hey, you know, I like I'm, I'm a little bit upset, upset having a hard time with this. I'm disappointed I'm struggling with this. Yeah. Like, those are two different things and I think that takes, um, work on individuals parts. Oh my gosh. And some awareness.

Shana James: Yeah. I talk about that in my TED talk too. And I think it does take work to be able to feel something. You know, notice it put words to it that aren't explosive, and then to also collaborate with someone else, right? Like, it's very different to say, I'm, I'm struggling with this. I'm kind of, you know, I'm feeling upset about this.

You know, is there a way that we can talk about this? Or how can we work this out together? Versus then starting to attack someone or you're, you know, you're bad, you're wrong. I can't believe, or, and then that's the fear of where you might lose your job or,

Dr. John Schinnerer: yeah.

Shana James: Have some really legitimate negative impact, right?

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah.

Shana James: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Um, okay. Let's see, where else can we go from the, from here? Um, this has been a great conversation. I've really enjoyed this. Me too.

Um, so let's talk a little bit about, um, integrating a client's dreams with their current work situation. In other words, like, I've got clients that, you know, maybe, um, he's like a senior VP at Wells Fargo and he is, been very successful, makes a lot of money, and is completely unfulfilled and unsatisfied at work.

Shana James: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: You know, how do we, how do we get to that passion and I mean, incorporated in either this position or finding another position or something

Shana James: else, right. I mean, well, I think that's the, there's the willingness to take a risk and say, I'm not happy here. Not, you don't have to say it to your, your,

Dr. John Schinnerer: yeah.

Yeah. Your boss.

Shana James: Your boss, or if you are the boss supervisor. Right. But admitting that to yourself first. Mm-hmm. And considering that there's another possibility. So oftentimes if I'm working with a man who's struggling in that way, we start to look at, well, what does make you happy? You know, what does matter to you?

What, what experiences have you had in the past year or decade or whatever where you actually really felt lit up or inspired and what? What's the risk here? Right? For some people there is a fear of, well, I need to take care of my family, and I don't know where money's gonna come from if I don't make it.

For other people, there's actually a lot of savings and you could make a transition, but the fear is a little more of being seen as someone who is less than, right? If I move on from being a CEO of this company to something, it actually makes me happy, but there's less status. Then we start to dive into, well, what does that, what does that actually mean about you?

Does it mean anything about you? Or is it just these old ideas and stories that you have? So I think desires and meaning are a big part of that. And then the willingness to let go of expectations and who you are supposed to be and the ideas of what make you successful.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And, and so how do you coach them towards taking those steps?

'cause those are difficult steps. Yeah. I mean, those are, they're difficult

Shana James: steps, so, right. They're slowly high, higher

Dr. John Schinnerer: bars,

Shana James: some, sometimes slowly, um, you know, first we talk about, okay, what, what really matters? And then we start having, I start having them look at what are some ways that that could happen in the world?

And starting to have conversations with other people and. Um, you know, and then starting to make moves one step at a time, right? It might be a conversation. Yeah, what are you so backing

Dr. John Schinnerer: up, how do you help them identify what really matters? Because I can go to values, kind of helping them just Yeah. Look at a list of values and kind of identify what they value most.

Yes. And I would say, you know, come up with three, maybe give or take plus or minus two. Um, but the other way I like to go is what have you been complimented for in the past? Uhhuh can help identify strengths.

Shana James: Yep. I like that too. The problem

Dr. John Schinnerer: with that is I think that, I don't know if this is men and women or just men, but we suck.

Internalizing compliments.

Shana James: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And, and so you get, I work with

Shana James: men a lot on that. Like, I'm like, did you hear me just say, did, did you hear me acknowledge you? And they're like, yeah, yeah. Wait, stop,

Dr. John Schinnerer: stop.

Shana James: Yeah. I'm like, okay, well let's slow it down 'cause I actually want you to take that in. You know? And oftentimes men end up in tears or just like, whoa, I've never really felt that before.

And now if you can't receive. Then imagine what's gonna happen in the bedroom or imagine what's gonna happen in your relationship.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah.

Shana James: Um, so yeah, receiving feels like a big part. And the other way that I like to help men understand this is through experiences. So I think values are great. Strengths are great though sometimes you have strengths that you're really good at, but it's not something that lights you up or makes you happy.

Mm-hmm. Uh, but so I also like going to experiences, you know, what are the experiences? You've had where you've left just feeling like, damn, that was awesome. You know, that was, that was, uh, something I'm gonna remember for a really long time. That was something that really mattered to me.

Dr. John Schinnerer: The other thing that I think kind of enters in here is, uh, one of the things I've noticed about a lot of men that I've worked with in the past is that they, because positive emotions are quiet and fleeting and fragile, and they whisper to us.

Mm-hmm.

Shana James: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: We're not very good at picking them up or being aware of them. And so I've gotta train them to become more aware of them so that they can even begin to realize, oh yeah, this experience, it did make me feel relaxed or contented or proud, or I felt awe or inspired. Mm-hmm. Uh, do you have any, um, any comment on that?

Any thoughts?

Shana James: I love what you just said, that positive emotions are more fleeting and wispy or whispering. And I think that's a really, it's a beautiful way. I mean, you know damn

Dr. John Schinnerer: well when you're angry, right?

Shana James: Right. It is loud, but don't necessarily know fierce and intense

Dr. John Schinnerer: when you're relaxed.

Shana James: Yeah, yeah. And, but I think the way you start to know when you're relaxed is to be more aware of your body.

Mm-hmm. So when you can start to be aware of. What spaciousness feels like and what ease feels like and what delight feels like, right? They are. They're more tingly, and so I often have men slow down and, okay, the first response is gonna be in your head and your mind and your thoughts. Okay, now let's just slow down and rather than looking for something, let's see what arises.

Because when we get slower and quieter, then we can start paying attention to those, the more subtle things, and then the more subtle things actually start to be. Louder. Right, right. The pleasure actually starts to Right.

Dr. John Schinnerer: As soon more intense. Right. As you tune into 'em and train yourself to notice them.

'cause I mean, some of the tells I like are expansiveness in the chest,

Shana James: uhhuh, you know, the

Dr. John Schinnerer: chin might come up slightly. Like in pride. Yeah. A little bit of warmth. Shoulders get pulled back. Warmth, uhhuh, uhhuh in

Shana James: the face of the time. Relaxation,

Dr. John Schinnerer: deeper breathing. Yes. But it, it's almost, I mean, it's almost as if you're noticing an absence of physiological tells.

Exactly. Right. Yeah. And so that's where it gets, um. Like, I think we really need training Yeah. In how to pick these up. 'cause they are subtle. Yeah. And for instance, like I'll describe contentment as, you know, stop, bring your attention right here, right now in this room.

Shana James: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And ask yourself the question, do I have everything that I need right here, right now?

Because most of the times we actually do this time we do.

Shana James: Yeah. And right in every session that I do with men, we start out with. Some kind of body awareness, noticing and, and I say, you know, numb, even numbness is a sensation. Mm-hmm. Right? You might think that numbness is the lack of sensation, but there's an actual way that you're feeling numbness, and so you start to tune in more and more to those subtleties and then, right.

The more, the more you have the consciousness, the awareness of that, the experience of that, the more you can have them. Right. It's like, then I think about it concretely going back to the bedroom. You can have an orgasm that's, you know, 10 times more expansive or pleasurable because you're actually feeling the experience of being in your body.

Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And, and I think, and I meant to mention this earlier when we were talking about the bedroom, but I think presence has a large part. It's huge just being with yourself and your partner in the room Agreed. When you're in the room.

Shana James: Agreed.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And you mentioned that kind of when you were, um, after the, the memorial service or the funeral

Shana James: Yes.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Where I, I think you weren't present, like you, your mind wasn't there because you were thinking about what happened earlier in the day. Right. And he picked that up,

Shana James: which is a, and he could feel that awareness and he was present enough to say, Hey, I don't think you're here. I don't think you're present.

Which is impressive. Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. And even more impressive than that. He gave you room to feel that.

Shana James: I know. It's really amazing.

Dr. John Schinnerer: But I, I really think there's something to that, that is a extremely powerful bonding

Shana James: Yes.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Experience. I, I can't, extremely powerful. Can't quite put words on it. I know.

Shana James: It's really hard to put words to what happens.

People, it's like a connection of the hearts. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And you know, one of the things I think of is, um, are you familiar with HeartMath? A little bit, not so much. So one of the things I love that they did, they're research based and it's, uh, like Big Sur or something like that, but they showed that the human heart.

Projects an electromagnetic field about Yes. In six feet outside of the body mm-hmm. That can be measured. Mm-hmm. Six feet outside of the body. And I think to me, I like thinking of that as one of the ways, um, that empathy can occur.

Shana James: Oh yeah. That, you know, those

Dr. John Schinnerer: mere neurons in the brain can sense the energy from the hearts commingling.

Shana James: Yes.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And I, I think that when my heart rate syns with your heart rate

Shana James: Yes.

Dr. John Schinnerer: That there's something incredibly powerful about that. Yeah.

Shana James: It's so powerful, and again, I often have a really hard time putting words to it, but it's like when you, when you no longer have to prove to someone that you're good enough or you're smart enough, or you're strong enough and you know that you're loved for who you are, and.

You know, there's that welcoming and accepting and then on top of that, not only are your minds meeting, but your heart is meeting and your body's meeting and your soul is meeting, it becomes this way more multidimensional.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah.

Shana James: Experience that is beautiful and ecstatic and you know, not always right, there's, there's pain and the struggle that we all experience, but in those times it is like nothing else that we can experience.

Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer: And, and when you're at the beginning of that comment I was thinking about, you know, you have a partner, ideally, you have a partner that sees the potential in you, that sees your worth, that accepts it unconditionally. So that's one side of the coin. The other side of the coin that I discovered was I have to believe that I'm worthy of that belief.

Yes. I have to have the self-worth to receive that and I, I had to do a little bit of work around that some years ago. Yeah. Don't we

Shana James: all, several years ago I doing, I thought it was just me. I've been doing work on that for 40 something years.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Uh, yeah, disentangling the, the programming of the past.

Totally.

Shana James: I mean, you know, and, and I, I do a lot of spiritual psychological work and just, I used to think like, why, why can't we just get rid of this? And now I realize it's, it is woven into the very fabric of our beings and our identities, and so. It does. It takes some time and it often takes some support.

And I think men especially have this idea, well I should be able to do it on my own and I should be able to do it quickly and Right, of course. You know, why is it not happening this way and what's wrong with me? 'cause it's not happening this way. And that's just all a fallacy.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. That's how we're socialized though, to be an army of one.

Shana James: Yes, exactly. I

Dr. John Schinnerer: mean that's why I, I love that Simon and Garfunkel song of I Am a Rock.

Shana James: Yes.

Dr. John Schinnerer: I wanted to be the Rock for years. I wanted to be the island.

Shana James: Yes.

Dr. John Schinnerer: But it doesn't work out very well.

Shana James: No, it doesn't work out very well.

Dr. John Schinnerer: Doesn't, doesn't. Connect with happiness.

Shana James: No,

Dr. John Schinnerer: very well. No.

Um, so Shayna, in wrapping up, is there anything that I didn't ask you that I should have?

I, I mean, we've covered a lot of ground here. I've greatly enjoyed this conversation. Hmm. Um, and, and the other part of the, the part B of that question is tell people where they can get ahold of you.

Shana James: Yeah. Great. Okay. So you can get ahold of me@shaynajamescoaching.com and you can look for my podcast and spell,

Dr. John Schinnerer: spell that.

Shana James: S-H-A-N-A. There you go, Shana James. And my podcast is Man Alive, and you can look for John's episode, Dr. John's episode on there as well, which will be amazing. And, um, anything I, I feel really passionate about what happens when we start letting go of defenses, letting go of trying to prove right, being undefended with each other and really getting that.

So much of what we respond to react to is not personal. And there is just like we were talking about, it's, it's hard to describe, but what happens when two people start to come together without defenses and actually grow together and actually learn to love together, actually learn to, um. Have more respect for themselves and each other.

I mean, life, it's almost like you go from having a black and white life to a life full of color and taste and sound and music and orchestra and symphony, right? You know, life becomes so much richer and so much more beautiful and so much more deeply meaningful. And, and I often have men think about, okay, when you look back, you, if you go to the end of your life and you look back.

What are you going to wish that you had experienced? Or what are you gonna feel grateful that you've experienced? Or what are you gonna realize actually wasn't so meaningful? And yet I kept pushing that button, trying to make the thing happen. So I think that's a really beautiful exercise to do too, is to look at, look, look back from the end and see, God, what will be most important to me?

And am I actually putting my attention and my action there?

Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, beautifully stated, and a great note to wrap up on. So, Shayna, thank you so much for joining me. I, as I said, I, I think this is just a, a tremendous interview. Thank you. Which will be a great service for men.

Shana James: Good, good. That makes me happy. Um, so

Dr. John Schinnerer: thank you very much and for all you avid listeners, feel free to check out more@theevolvecavan.com or at any.

Fine establishment of podcasts. Thanks so much for listening. That's it for this episode of The Evolved Caveman. Bye-bye.